Comments on: someone get me a command line http://www.newsprint-fray.com/2009/09/11/someone-get-me-a-command-line/ Sat, 24 Jul 2010 17:10:19 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: pam http://www.newsprint-fray.com/2009/09/11/someone-get-me-a-command-line/comment-page-1/#comment-241 pam Thu, 17 Sep 2009 21:40:16 +0000 http://www.newsprint-fray.com/?p=49#comment-241 This is such a great, thought-provoking comment! I've been hesitant to respond because I'm still thinking about it, and responding with "yes, this!" always seems like a cop-out. But I think you're very right about Python's focus on style and elegance. I love that there's a style guide (I think journalism will do that to a person; I pretty much slept with the AP stylebook under my pillow for years) but I do think it can be discouraging, especially for new people and those used to working on their own. I'm still thinking about the chicken-and-egg point, and probably need to do some poking around. But I definitely think python is used to solve all kinds of problems; whether anyone knows that is a different story, and one well worth exploring. Thanks again for your comment! This is such a great, thought-provoking comment! I’ve been hesitant to respond because I’m still thinking about it, and responding with “yes, this!” always seems like a cop-out.

But I think you’re very right about Python’s focus on style and elegance. I love that there’s a style guide (I think journalism will do that to a person; I pretty much slept with the AP stylebook under my pillow for years) but I do think it can be discouraging, especially for new people and those used to working on their own.

I’m still thinking about the chicken-and-egg point, and probably need to do some poking around. But I definitely think python is used to solve all kinds of problems; whether anyone knows that is a different story, and one well worth exploring.

Thanks again for your comment!

]]> By: Catherine Jones http://www.newsprint-fray.com/2009/09/11/someone-get-me-a-command-line/comment-page-1/#comment-240 Catherine Jones Wed, 16 Sep 2009 17:23:19 +0000 http://www.newsprint-fray.com/?p=49#comment-240 In a code-based community people participate, largely, by sharing and discussing code. But there can be quite a gap between hacking together something that solves a problem and writing code that feels pretty enough to share. People sensitive to criticism - and I count myself among that group - may hold back from sharing what they do until they've had time to polish it, document it, and establish its value in solving some real-world problem. That may not be the way community and open source are supposed to work; ideally we'd all be generous and fearless in the release-early-and-often tradition. But we all come to Python (and other languages) in our own ways dragging our own life experience with us. As a person who uses Python in a solitary way (i.e., for my own projects but not as an employee or member of a team), I get feedback from the machine about whether my code works but not about whether it's readable, appropriately commented, sufficiently "Pythonic," etc. My notion of how other people write Python comes from books, from the baypiggies mailing list (where I lurk), and from snippets of code that I find online when I have a problem and go googling for a solution. Maybe this code is not representative; maybe it's skewed toward the good stuff that others have found useful or worthy of publication. Maybe I'd be less intimidated by high standards if I worked on a team or had personal contact with other Python programmers. I wonder, also, whether the Python community (admittedly a vague amorphous concept) differs from other programming language communities in its emphasis on style and elegance and whether this emphasis, however understandable and justified, may not contribute to the intimidation factor. In my (also solitary and not very extensive) experience with other languages (Turbo Pascal, C++, Java, Scheme, Emacs Lisp, PHP) I don't recall reading much about style. Does anyone praise a piece of Java code as being particularly Java-esque? Sometimes it's a joy just to get code (in any language) to run and do what you want it to do. But, if elegance matters to the community and if elegance means significant extra work, the joy may well remain a solitary one. There also a kind of chicken-and-egg issue having to do with the problems to which Python gets applied. One of my longstanding interests is textile design. That's what got me into Python in the first place: Python was the designated scripting language for Skencil, a vector graphics editor/generator that I wanted to apply to textile design. But an interest in textile design doesn't connect me with the Python community (or any programming community) in the way that an equivalent interest in 2D game design would. Textile design and game design may call upon some of the same graphics libraries, but the demographics of the end-users are different. Game design is a viable entry point into the Python community, because a reasonable number of gamers have an interest in programming and some of those who do program know Python. The same doesn't hold true for textile design. Until Python gets applied more broadly to problems of interest to different demographic groups... Finally, I should add that I have enormous gratitude to the Python community for the wealth of free code and information it makes available. I may be a lurker and (lightweight) parasite for now, but I do intent to participate and give back eventually. In a code-based community people participate, largely, by sharing and discussing code. But there can be quite a gap between hacking together something that solves a problem and writing code that feels pretty enough to share. People sensitive to criticism – and I count myself among that group – may hold back from sharing what they do until they’ve had time to polish it, document it, and establish its value in solving some real-world problem. That may not be the way community and open source are supposed to work; ideally we’d all be generous and fearless in the release-early-and-often tradition. But we all come to Python (and other languages) in our
own ways dragging our own life experience with us.

As a person who uses Python in a solitary way (i.e., for my own projects but not as an employee or member of a team), I get feedback from the machine about whether my code works but not about whether it’s readable, appropriately commented, sufficiently “Pythonic,” etc. My notion of how other people write Python comes from books, from the baypiggies mailing list (where I lurk), and from snippets of code that I find online when I have a problem and go googling for a solution. Maybe this code is not representative; maybe it’s skewed toward the good stuff that others have found useful or worthy of publication. Maybe I’d be less intimidated by high standards if I worked on a team or had personal contact with other Python programmers.

I wonder, also, whether the Python community (admittedly a vague amorphous concept) differs from other programming language communities in its emphasis on style and elegance and whether this emphasis, however understandable and justified, may not contribute to the intimidation factor. In my (also solitary and not very extensive) experience with other languages (Turbo Pascal, C++, Java, Scheme, Emacs Lisp, PHP) I don’t recall reading much about style. Does anyone praise a piece of Java code as being particularly Java-esque? Sometimes it’s a joy just to get code (in any language) to run and do what you want it to do. But, if elegance matters to the community and if elegance means significant extra work, the joy may well remain a solitary one.

There also a kind of chicken-and-egg issue having to do with the problems to which Python gets applied. One of my longstanding interests is textile design. That’s what got me into Python in the first place: Python was the designated scripting language for Skencil, a vector graphics editor/generator that I wanted to apply to textile design. But an interest in textile design doesn’t connect me with the Python community (or any programming community) in the way that an equivalent interest in 2D game design would. Textile design and game design may call upon some of the same graphics libraries, but the demographics of the end-users are different. Game design is a viable entry point into the Python community, because a reasonable number of gamers have an interest in programming and some of those who do program know Python. The same doesn’t hold true for textile design. Until Python gets applied more broadly to problems of interest to different demographic groups…

Finally, I should add that I have enormous gratitude to the Python community for the wealth of free code and information it makes available. I may be a lurker and (lightweight) parasite for now, but I do intent to participate and give back eventually.

]]>